Rui: thanks a lot! actually the material system ‘refractor’ is pretty much done from our perspective. the skin already profits from major improvements like multimaterial layering and other neat shading tricks… =)
i dont know if we need node based material editing now. surely many of them are cool, and several node based things seem to have been implemented in blender. but it is not the only way to make a material editor.
another cool thing would be opengl2 gpu shader use for material previews, like we saw Eskil do at the conference.. any takers on that?-)
Toni: Node based editing has a cool thing, you always see the different stages all at once for each material, thus gives you a better feedback and allows you to pinpoint more accuratly which material is not exactly as you wanted it to.
Also it is faster to check on the whole tree/chain the material you want to change, better then knowing them in your mind (naming it properly does help alot).
And I second you, OpenGL 2.0 would be really good, faster performance and would result in better previews.
well… i guess we all would like to have node based materials, but currently its implementation is too much work for the coding activity involved in orange. so to be realistic: i guess it wont happen in the near future.
we probably don’t need it now, but actually the demands regarding the material system are not too clear for me now .. probably the issues are more in rendering now, but perhaps not even there. i guess we just need to make good materials, which is scheduled for later now (focus being on animation atm - in movie production, not in programming)
the mesh is rigged with bones, we’ve got some driven shapes on it, right now just about 4… a fraction of what we need. the bones can be hand animated, or driven by a variety of methods ( low poly mesh w/ softbody, slow parent empties (but I don’t think that will actually work in this case) etc… )
Florian said on 5 Dec, 2005:
This is really, really good.
I love it and look forward to see more of it.
Keep the good job guys!!
Blender is a hell of a program!!!!
Carsten Tigges said on 5 Dec, 2005:
You are really developping your own style. Really impressive charakters. The eyes are great.
Toon Scheur said on 5 Dec, 2005:
By the way, are you going to render it with the internal render engine? I like the style of image, it has that oil painting quality to it. Heck, I found that all to often Blender does render with this oil painting look to it.
Anyway, it would be cool to see this rendered with Yafray, Blender internal, 16:9, 4:3 in all those combinations.
One more question, has the final animation rewrite fill all your needs, or are there some issues left (constraints, more exotic bones, animation tools etc.)?
mifune said on 5 Dec, 2005:
that are two great characters. they already look amazing in a still, please make it breathtaking when animated.
DwarvenFury said on 5 Dec, 2005:
Emo? Blatant rip-off of Nemo from Finding Nemo if you ask me… ;) JK Completely amazing characters. Kudos to you guys.
NateTG said on 5 Dec, 2005:
Amazing work, guys. I love the style. Great pose for the shot too!
Omar said on 5 Dec, 2005:
Proog is fine. (just weird right hand)
Emo would deserve more work.
He looks like a mutant, i mean it’s more a result of a lack of skill in character design and anatomy knowledge than a wished stylized character, IMHO.
Rework his neck/jaw and hands.
Nevertheless the overall mood is great.
Little advice: Don’t post this on Cgtalk.
Keep it up
PLEASE DON’T BE UPSET, you are able to do better again.
Omar, please don’t be upset but can you post a web link to your expert works?
Also, you say Proog is fine but Emo is the result of lack of skill. So you mean the team had skill but then lost it? Come on man, make sense! ;)
hehe, Omar, no offence taken :D
We tried with both characters to stylise a lot, to stay away from the “close to human” look. We really are afraid of the uncanny valley phenomenon, that results from getting too close to real people. Proog’s (and Emo’s) weight painting/deformations and shapes aren’t finished yet- good eye spotting the deformation problem with Proog’s hand.
Proog’s hands are a copy of Emo’s, that are scaled to be even longer and more disproportionate… while Emo’s hands are modelled after mine, but still scaled and tweaked beyond human normal.
We’ll always want to do better of course, but we have to keep the character design as-is. Our schedule is incredibly tight, with no room for many revisions- we’ve done too much of that already.
rubbleman said on 5 Dec, 2005:
Very very nice guys.
This movie will be a real credit to Blender and your talents.
The rubbleman’s only reservation is that Emo’s neck is presently a little too thin (extreme) about half way down - IMHO it may be better -while still having the same style- if it was say 5mm more at the back and 10mm at the front -relatively speaking :o)
excellent work so far though…on the strength of it rubbleman is heading out today to buy a box of popcorn to have ready for the screening…
Very impressed !!!
The best characters than I saw on Blender, nice work !
Rui Campos said on 5 Dec, 2005:
Hey there, again.
Viewing the image again on my Laptop TFT screen the cloths materials look pretty good, but they don’t look that great when seen on CRTs, if you have the oportunity to get a 17″ CRT to the studio I think it would help you guys spot some big differences.
hehe, Fweeb, you got it too.. we were thinking of making an elaborate hoax about his hand being part of the story, but it’s as simple as that his weight painting isn’t finished yet. In the final, both their hands should deform nicely ( I hope!! )
Thanks everyone for the nice comments.. Andy is home sleeping after a really late night working last night, but I’m sure he’ll be glad.
DwarvenFury said on 5 Dec, 2005:
Just out of curiosity, how many polys are the characters made of?
well, I’m working on Proog right now, he’s weighing in at 72944 faces, unsubsurfed. render faces are higher- most things have a level 2 subsurf. We add a few little details for later, so it might be higher.
OMG, guys you rock ! It’s a superb still, well done ! ^^
Can’t wait for the DVD…
Keep up da good work :)
King'O'Roff said on 6 Dec, 2005:
Job said on 6 Dec, 2005:
The looks very nice, great style!
crits, the pose of Emo’s right hand looks unnatural to me and the cloth texture looks too plastic to me, a very fine detailed bumpmap could solve that.. for the rest no crits! :)
Although I think Emo looks a bit to real, I wonder if that will influence the animation. I advice you to have some people to comment on that during the weekly ( I probably have no time this year to visit :( ). It’s to difficult to judge that by this one (postprocessed) still image.
This is ofcourse is the poster we need on the sleeve (instead of that cut orange) :)
Vassilios Boucer said on 6 Dec, 2005:
The Orange Team and Blender 3D Application is Amazing! Superb!! Hip! Enthusiastic! Intelligent!! Lean! Great! Surprising! Lively!!! Dynamic! Healthy! Excellent! Action-packed!! Scalable!!! Democratic! Natural!! Flexible!! Efficient!!! Forgiving!! Friendly! Social!! Cosmic!!!! Exciting! Original!!!!!!!
Great - no… VERY GREAT work!!!
A great example for Blender’s abilities (and his users, too).
Look here, expensive commercial programs… It can be done without you all!!! ;-))
20to30 said on 6 Dec, 2005:
Jackets are too blury, and behave like plastic. Left character’s face seems to be made of wood. His neck is quite weird too. His pose is very inexpressionable, mainly because of hands holding each other not so tight - like he is a toy and arms can’t be posed that way because of physical constraints. Hair looks like he just washed it and dried instantly, which doesnt suit overall atmosphere(Maybe blender’s hair solution can’t perform in another way, I don’t know). Right character is much better, but has the same problems with clothes. Anyway I like the picture, somehow.
hey guy, where are YOUR so amazing-like-hellfire pictures?
perhaps you should show some better results of your own artificial work before ripping the really great work of others, while somehow it seems you even don’t really know about Blender’s features.
Levi said on 6 Dec, 2005:
Very nice character’s indeed with a nice original look,it was definately a good idea to steer clear of the realistic approach. I think with this look it adds a more distinct personality to both character’s. It really is looking good so far, well done guy’s !!
20to30 said on 6 Dec, 2005:
>>hey guy, where are YOUR so amazing-like-hellfire pictures?
I’m afraid that won’t help orange’s characters look better.
>>perhaps you should show some better results of your own artificial work before ripping the really great work of others
I’m not ripping their work. This is not a great work. I think it is a bit lower than good. I think the aim must be accomplished. Orange seemed to define too complex aim for resources it has. That doesn’t mean, that there are no good designers in Orange.
>>it seems you even don’t really know about Blender’s features.
Well, I won’t try to proove anything, cause this is not a king’s business, but I’m really aware of blender’s features. Blender is improving, however I’m not sure about the direction blender improves in, adding nice original features without having all the essentials. Blender and Orange suffers a lot from fans. Supplied with open-source package, they become blind to see all those commercial innovations and still don’t want to admit blender’s weak points, calling them “features”.
FastEddy: sorry but 20to30 made valid points and I think giving constructive critism doesnt require a large body of work to justify that.
20to30: definately. as much we like to perfect every single thing on our way we’re really rushing through all of this to get it done. this image was done for several reasons:
- giving the voice actors a hint of their characters
- giving us hints about texturing and styling that we have yet to finish!
- giving the audience *finally* a tiny hint of what they’re gonna see
on some levels i really hope that we can keep up the same level of complexity for the entire movie… but on the others i would also like to do much better, duh! given the short time that we have to finish this highly, extremely, mind bogglingly complicated task the latter seems rather… a challenge… to us.
thank you for your c&c!
Epsilorn said on 6 Dec, 2005:
Now that I have calmed down i would like to contribute with a little critique: I think jackets’ problem is not textures but flatness: whatever material they are done should definitely have a lot more folds, especially around shoulders, but also in other parts! Hope this helps…. Great work btw!
20to30 said on 6 Dec, 2005:
Andy, I really think You know Your mistakes better than I do and I would not place any comments, because they can do harm sometimes, but there were too much WOWs, so I’ve tried to adjust the balance somehow =)
@ Andy and 20to30:
sorry, it wasn’t the critism itself, but more the way to tell it. it gave the impression to be a little bit arrogant at the first read (please don’t feel attacked now).
apologies for my first - maybe a bit too hard - reaction. :-)
They’re fantastic, you’re fantastic, orange is fantastic. Go on guys. After Blender this is the best thing that could happen to open source soft and art. Thanks because you make us to use blender more and more every day.
I think there is a littl envy in some conments. Some critics are not constructive and they have subtle bad intentions in any cases and not so subtle in many others.
the arm of the guy on the front is not looking good at all!
Omar said on 6 Dec, 2005:
it’s a problem specific to the fans.
When there are some TRUE critics, you get berserker whereas the concerned ones - Orange team - reacted pretty well.
“20to30″ is right.
And yes, i find also there are too much of “WoW”, “Stunning” , good intention but not enough to be true or helpful. :p
All here, we want “ED” kicks a lot of asses, but you don’t have to lie to yourself and accept to let others freely discuss without always asking them to their resumes.
If a no-pro can see leaks, it fails.
Best regards O’Team
NOTICE: O’Team are bigs guys, they can defend themselves if they were offenced.
Toon Scheur said on 6 Dec, 2005:
Man! I get a headache of the fanboy action here…
Anyway, up to a certain degree I don’t care what the characters look like. These 2 certainly has appeal because I starred at them for more than 12 seconds. At first when I saw stills from the Incredibles, I thought the characters looked terrible (how wrong I was). I’ll wait untill you guys have some animation to show. Just remember: like they say at Pixar: animate emotions, not actions/ movements. Please exagerate a lot, don’t do like they did it for Final Fantasy.
A quick question: Are the bodies modeled too? And how detailed do you model it? Or are the characters just limbs sticking out the clothes mesh?
Well, we apreciate all the comments, crits or pats on the back alike. I don’t think anyone’s being mean spirited.
Of course we will try to do the best we can. But it won’t be perfect! part of doing a professional job (or trying to) is hitting the deadlines even if the end result isn’t as good as we know we can make it.. we have to make compromises sometimes.
As far as no pros seeing leaks.. of course they will! and it won’t (IMO) make the movie ‘fail’. No pros often see leaks, quite often because they don’t know or care about the difficulty of accomplishing things… you should hear what some of my non cg friends say about the the incredibles… “the hair sucks” “their mouths looks weird” etc… and I don’t think we’ll accomplish “pixar quality” in this movie.
I’m not making excuses! I hope we make something good, that we can all enjoy.. but remember, perfection is the enemy of good ;)
nice looking characters. They have “style”. Good work.
But, please, keep in mind that nice looking characters don’t lead necesserely to a good movie.
Well, I have to put a bit of bitter in all this sweetness :)
Bye and keep Blending
Toon Scheur said on 6 Dec, 2005:
Of course it won’t be Pixar. But it will make Blender be better noticed (especialy at the upcoming Siggraph), and thus hopefuly atract more profesional artists and developers. By the way, the elephant dreams teaser was very well done, just like high quality holywood teasers you see at the movies. I’m no fan boy, it simply is one of the best I’ve seen in a long time (timing, camera directing, mood setting and the dramatic closure).
20to30 said on 6 Dec, 2005:
You can’t say that some crits point to failures for sure. People do lie. Some may say that Pixar’s characters are bad because Pixar is a big company and earning big money - these are crits with envy. Some may say that the picture looks fine, but after they find out it was made not with their favorite app, they may say that it is a crap - these are crits with arrogance. There are some other types of false crits aswell =). They do nothing good and may just puzzle designers, who don’t know people so well. Sometimes it may be difficult to undestand if someone sais false or true. I think that a strong personality can decide what is good or bad in his work. I think You just have to do Your work, without lying to yourself, and everything will be fine, that’s it.
Maq said on 6 Dec, 2005:
Nice render . Hope the direction will be nice to . Who is the director then ? :)
“You just have to do Your work, without lying to yourself, and everything will be fine, that’s it.”
Yes! 100 % true. I too forget that myself when working with my own 3d, it´s sometimes the wish of “getting there” that gets
ahead of the reality.
You know… I don´t think people intentionally “lie” to
themselves in order to “feel greatness” I think it´s because
you really WISH that things improve and you “hope” that
other people think so too, but as you say…reality will
eventually get you ;)
theq said on 6 Dec, 2005:
wow you guys are amazing,looking really really good!!!!
glad i bought the dvd :P
keep up the amazing stuff
kakapo said on 7 Dec, 2005:
wow, very nice! i like that style a lot. :)
i kind of agree about the thin neck but maybe it’s only in this pose and not that noticeable when animated. often it’s like someone above said about the pixar characters. animation is everything. :)
I’m looking forward to seeing some of these guys in action now!
Kernon said on 7 Dec, 2005:
20to30: I believe you mean well…it’s just that your way with words make you seem to be a bit of a dick.
Maybe you could crank down the condescending attitude a little. Even if you’re right in some of your criticisms, you don’t have to rip someone’s hard work to make your point. It comes off as a bit amateurish and snobbish. Also, maybe you could share some of the results of your modeling expertise with the community so we can get an idea of where you’re coming from. Just my thoughts…
love the characters, i am blown away! its not a matter of if i will get the DVD, its WHEN. The crossed arms looks a bit weird, but who cares!! keep it up guys!
dude said on 7 Dec, 2005:
Wow, amazing picture, increasing my hopes for the film. Sorry I didn’t get it yet, I don’t like to pre-order stuff… *shrug*
Constructive comments ;)
1. Everything is pretty dark. From the teaser it seemed that there would be a ‘horror’ of some sort made by the bald guy but not every scene has to reflect that.
2. The bald guy is almost perfectly modeled (At least the parts of him fit together and match the clothing well. Also his expression is very cool) but his ‘companion’ gave me a bad first impression, mainly by his hair and hands. His neck is pretty long and thin, maybe you could have a scene with some major Adam’s Apple action or something.
3. The dusty stuff and glow is neat, but I might get tired of staring at it for a whole short film. I’m not sure if it has a major background or if it is just a stylistic descision, but i’ve seen it a lot in the teaser. (Maybe try spiderwebs instead or something.) Also it looks like you’re using mainly white or bluish lights which makes the mood even more unbalanced. Don’t they have grass or plants in this world? Anyway just something to think about :)
Two thumbs up for your movie and two thumbs and a pinkie up for the stuff you’re adding to blender.
PS. I’m not saying I could do any of the stuff i’ve talked about, i’m just here to suggest :D these are comments after all!
seven said on 7 Dec, 2005:
looks great guys. but i know this is just the tip of the iceberg! i saw some of the other great models in the teaser movie. and a lot of great settings too.
will we get to see large renders of these too in the near future?
keep up the good work!
Johan said on 7 Dec, 2005:
If anyone is interested in materials- check out http://www.neilblevins.com (CG Education) section. I thought his insights into shader theory (rubber, satin, leather etc) were very informative.
Auteuro said on 7 Dec, 2005:
Given the time constraints and the tools given–not to mention the fact that your are developing your main tool along the way (which has its own release deadline soon!!!)–you guys are doing an ABSOLUTELY STELLAR JOB!!!!! And not just for the yourselves, but for the ENTIRE BLENDER COMMUNITY. You guys just give, and give, and give, and don’t think we don’t appreciate it. I hope to someday be able to put out the quality of work you guys can with Blender in such a short timeframe and to return as much to others as you have.
Auteuro said on 7 Dec, 2005:
About the criticism: I have many opinions on the teasers we’ve seen, but I’m not saying a word. The reason is that with all the Blender improvements that have come as a result of the Orange project, I feel that there is nothing stopping me or anyone else from showing that we can do it better. All that is needed is the will…and the Orange team has lots of it. Besides, these guys are good…I haven’t a shadow of a doubt they are doing everything humanly possible given the relatively tiny amount of time and resources. I’m sure no one wants to see this succeed more than they do!
womball said on 7 Dec, 2005:
Wow, great progress so far! I was wondering why you didn’t show the face of the guy with the hair before. ;-) He finally made his appearance? I am going to have to get a copy of the DVD. Support you guys, If blender keeps developing at this pace, I might not need to learn another cg software for my senior piece, yay!
Forgot to mention: I completely subscribe vision of post 104. from Auteuro.
Thought it was important to state.
Great team you are!!!
And the blender community rejoices of everything you do!!!
DudeMan said on 7 Dec, 2005:
It looks good, not perfect, but good. And that is what matters.
For those with “negative” critism, just remember that not everything is as easy as it seems! That doesn’t mean you can’t criticise, but just do it with thought and kindness.
I know what it is to feel that you’re being demanded of…. People who CONSTANTLY want, demand, whin, complain, bitch, all the time — are just pieces of feces. That is not to be mean, but they should just SHUT UP for a little while, and keep one thing in mind….
…. And that is, “don’t expect more than you give.” These type of people are simply SELFISH!
So, I say to you Orange and Blender guys, keep up the good work. Blender is a remarkable piece of work, and what you do took guts and sweat. Good job Ton, and I mean this sincerely.
Project Orange, don’t let your spirits falter. Remember, Shrek was HORRIBLE, very plasticy and unnatural. Chicken Little is Chicken Crap, a lame attempt to “milk” money without focusing on doing a decent job.
That is to say, what you guys have shown us so far, excells MANY of “Hollybird’s” Animation. I’ve seen so many ANIME that kicks ass!
So in the spirit of constructive criticism, is to self-reflect, and work harder. I’m learning along the way. There has been some up and downs to producing a GREAT movie — so, I understand deeply the feeling and emotions you guys go through. And there has been some very unpleasant events (and situations/people) that have happened (and happening). So that is making things more difficult.
My point is: “Keep in mind the ‘humanistic’ aspect of every piece of work!”
Great! I really like the aspect and style! technically perfect!
But, just one thing.. i don’t know if it’s just that image, maybe it is.. but i think that with that “extreme proportions” that the character’s style have, it would be cool that the characters also have some extreme expressions.. maybe is just that image, but it seems like the characters aren’t doing anything, just standing there.. Emo looks like frozen (face, eyes).
Is just a though, don’t take it too serious, just an opinion.
However, GREAT work guys! i’m gonna buy the DVD for sure! I don’t know when but i’m gonna buy it! i can’t lose this! :)
keep it up!
20to30 said on 7 Dec, 2005:
“Shrek is horrible and Chicken Little is Chicken Crap” is a classic example of negative comments against big corporations and cost nothing but few bytes of internet traffic. I think people should express their emotional reaction to what they see on the pictures and in short movies here. Critics and “peons against megacorporations” wars are useless and just spam the blog. I would recommend to start working themselves. Orange team seems to work and this is everything they need now.
hey venomgfx ! yeah, facial expressions are not done yet for the characters.. I hope I can pull off extremes… but it can be difficult. I’m making shapes, but I might try adding some bone or lattice “helpers” to push some of the shapes further. Right now I’m actually doing shapes for Emo, to do animation for one of the shots that lacks facials at the moment.
Toon Scheur said on 7 Dec, 2005:
About the facial expression? How are you guys going to tackle that? Have you guys look into the F.A.C.S. system?
maccam912 said on 7 Dec, 2005:
I don’t know if someone has already said this, because I was too lazy to read all 112 responses, but…
on elYsiun people would congradulate this still, as it is better quality than most works there. Now here you are making a movie with them. It would be like pulling teeth to get someone to get such a great model and make a 10 second animation with their model. Elephants Dream is definately bringing inspiration and new ideas to Blender! Thanks!
Awesome work guys. The last few posts convinced me to buy the DVD! Yay!
smartAss said on 8 Dec, 2005:
hello to Emo (left) and Proog (right)!
rubbleman said on 9 Dec, 2005:
OK Orangers, the nice old rubbleman has been inspired by your genius to try out a mini animation of his very own making use of the various video tut’s and clues he can find and it is going ‘well’… however now he has a difficulty because he wants to make pretty pictures with his multi material/texture settings and he finds what looks good in one frame doesn’t look it’s best in another a while later when the lighting and camera is slightly different.So he wonders if there will be any facility coming that allows Blenderheads to sample an animation at nominated frames to easily compare the overall effect? What rubbleman is thinking is he would like is to pick a bunch on places in the timeline and have have them rendered to a folder with one button press. Then two could be viewed beside each other as pop-ups by clicking on the appropriate sample markers or maybe as aslide show…could only need be say 25%size OSA5 or an initial render pass?
Maybe this is a good idea, maybe not, rubbleman is not very experienced with animation and he wonders what you guys will do to make sure it is all turning out as you expect in each frame without doing them all?
BTW the rubbleman has been spying -yes I know-on the commit logs and he can see lots of neato stuff on the way by Ton and others. This is all excellent and I think we all will give you all 4 cheers at the end. Maybe everyone involved will make an autographed group photo for sale and then you will be not only famous but not so poor after all ;o)
ztonzy said on 10 Dec, 2005:
I just have to say the work you are displaying is just stunning work! The new shaderlaying system also seems very nice, how can we try it out? :)
I hope the coffee and the caviar helped you a bit in your everyday work *lol*
just keep it coming!
good luck :)
rubbleman said on 10 Dec, 2005:
to play with cool new stuff from big papa Ton you can download an Orange branch version by rcas from the Test Builds at www.blender3d.org/forum/
ztonzy, yeah! you reminded me of that caviar it was awesome.. really helped (coffee was nice and strong, too)
rogper said on 10 Dec, 2005:
That’s a crispy detailed character work my friends! Really awesome work!!!
One Day! … One day I will be a super character designer and I will beat you guys, but… by the moment I bow my head to the masters. ^_^
rogper said on 10 Dec, 2005:
To Rui Campos, relative to the Desks of the rich and famous post:
Well, then copying pasting the wise words of a regular follower of the orange project blog:
“Damn, I would just love to be there.”
Lets show to the world that we (portuguese dudes) cant do it!
Sorry this nothing to do whit the subject thing everyone @_^
You guys should be proud!!! Not only are you working with the most creative 3D application on the planet, but you get to work with the most creative team too! Your creativity and passion will be broadcasted to the world with this film and it already shows in these characters.
I’m sure this film will be a “stepping stone” for your team and another knotch on Ton’s belt for ‘Blender’s Success’!!
I envy you guys and wish I could be rubbing shoulders with you.
Mfawa Alfred said on 13 Dec, 2005:
Those are greatt characters and good modelling. Nice Job guys!!!!
buergi said on 17 Dec, 2005:
Wow, that is great, i couldn’t expect to get the DVD in march. Excellent work!!
[…] Het filmproject Orange van de Blender Foundation en Montevideo, waarover we al eerder schreven, zal gebruik gaan maken van de meest open Creative Commons licentie te weten de Creative Commons Naamsvermelding licentie. Dit staat in een oproep voor textures op het blog van Project Orange. Op dit blog kun je ook een kijkje achter de schermen nemen. Zo kun je een indruk krijgen van wat er allemaal nodig is voor de realisatie van dit project. Interessant detail is dat de Nederlandse acteurs Cas Jansen en Tygo Gernandt, toch zeker niet de minste, gestrikt zijn voor het inspreken van de stemmen van de hoofdkarakters Emo en Proog. […]
In such a highly developed humanity as the present, each individual naturally has access to many talents. Each has an inborn talent, but only in a few is that degree of toughness, endurance, and energy born and trained that he really becomes a talent, bec